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scientists!The Rebirth wrote:Also, agree with Jeff, who's to say plants aren't sentient beings?
no nervous system.
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Karl
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The Rebirth
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KCLU- Admin
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no nervous system.
The Rebirth- Posts : 196
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Kyle, don't be so close-minded.
Early Buddhists believed plants to be sentient beings. Perhaps it is beyond our comprehension and understanding. Our world is full of wonders.
Early Buddhists believed plants to be sentient beings. Perhaps it is beyond our comprehension and understanding. Our world is full of wonders.
DopeMasterJFlow- Admin
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What about sponges? They have no nervous system. Are they sentient?
And if killing things with a nervous system is wrong, then you should be ashamed next time you step on a bug or swat a fly
And if killing things with a nervous system is wrong, then you should be ashamed next time you step on a bug or swat a fly
KCLU- Admin
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okay, I can't prove that consciousness has nothing to do with brains, but we have really good reasons to assume not.
and I never said it was always wrong to kill things with nervous systems! I think its okay to kill humans in a lot of circumstances.
and I never said it was always wrong to kill things with nervous systems! I think its okay to kill humans in a lot of circumstances.
DopeMasterJFlow- Admin
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KCLU wrote:okay, I can't prove that consciousness has nothing to do with brains, but we have really good reasons to assume not.
and I never said it was always wrong to kill things with nervous systems! I think its okay to kill humans in a lot of circumstances.
Then why is it wrong to harvest animals for meat?
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the processes inflict massive amounts of suffering on them, and non-human animals' suffering isn't somehow less terrible than human animals'.
Newmantopia- Posts : 109
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The Rebirth wrote:Well then, I feel terrible for the future of livestock if we're growing meat out of text tubes. Thanks for that link! You understand that there will be no reason to keep non-dairy cattle, pigs, chickens, etc around if we're not using them for meat. So I pose this question, who will continue to care for livestock animals when they no longer serve a purpose? Vegans? Ha, good luck, they all live in trendy sections of large cities.
Also, agree with Jeff, who's to say plants aren't sentient beings? Why should we rape them of their fruits? Have you ever seen the atrocities the logging industry has committed?
We would not be constantly producing livestock to cyclically murder.
As for plants, I say rape and kill the shit out of them. I hate those mother fuckers.
Karl- Admin
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jesse, it is the industrial livestock industry that you object to or all eating of animals?
and how do you feel about fish, eggs, and crustaceans?
and how do you feel about fish, eggs, and crustaceans?
Newmantopia- Posts : 109
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Karl wrote:jesse, it is the industrial livestock industry that you object to or all eating of animals?
and how do you feel about fish, eggs, and crustaceans?
I eat fish, eggs, and crustaceans. I'd definitely opt for veganism if there were healthier and cheaper, more readily available alternatives. However, the world we live in does not really support that lifestyle like others, so I do what I can for my part. In other words, I can only go so far out of my way in hopes that the vote I make with my wallet will make a difference in our food industry.
Like you said earlier, the industrial livestock industry is obviously really fucked up. It's not so much the act of *eating* animals that bothers me as it is the mistreating and killing of them, particularly when it is unnecessary, which in the developing world it is quickly becoming-- it's just a matter of where the demand is. The market will quickly respond.
KCLU- Admin
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I know you saw that Facebook thread Jeff, dunno if you did Nick, but you guys should definitely check out the wiki article I alluded to. it covers all my thought on the issue, at least.
also want to say that yes, I do think the subject at hand is a big deal, but always take what I argue to sit in the context of "the world is an extremely complicated place and you are my friends and I truly do trust and respect your judgment on stuff," please.
also want to say that yes, I do think the subject at hand is a big deal, but always take what I argue to sit in the context of "the world is an extremely complicated place and you are my friends and I truly do trust and respect your judgment on stuff," please.
Newmantopia- Posts : 109
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Karl wrote:jesse, it is the industrial livestock industry that you object to or all eating of animals?
and how do you feel about fish, eggs, and crustaceans?
How do you feel on these matters?
KCLU wrote:I know you saw that Facebook thread Jeff, dunno if you did Nick, but you guys should definitely check out the wiki article I alluded to. it covers all my thought on the issue, at least.
Scully says, 'If reason and morality are what set humans apart from animals, then reason and morality must always guide us in how we treat them.'
Love this quote.
Kyle, how would you feel if it came down to a necessary death between a cow or a human? And why would it be chosen over the other?
Karl- Admin
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Newmantopia wrote:Karl wrote:jesse, it is the industrial livestock industry that you object to or all eating of animals?
and how do you feel about fish, eggs, and crustaceans?
How do you feel on these matters?
i'm probably gonna have a sort of long answer to this, i'll post it tomorrow.
The Rebirth- Posts : 196
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I'm not reading an article that has "This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality," written across the top, I guess I do like that you covered your ass though with the "my thoughts" bit. Still not reading a slanted article which Jesse goes on to quote from. I have a quote for you,
"Damn this pig taste good." - America.
Isn't the same abuse done unto chickens to harvest eggs? I've seen the videos with the cages. As well as fish/crustacean harvesting. I don't think anyone should be arguing here that it is wrong to eat meat. As far as the meat industry goes, its a big pinata so you don't really have to have a huge bat to hit it. Crying about the industry has been really trendy over the past couple of years and if you think it's going to hit us like a meteor or something in the next decade or so I think you're wrong. I think their have already been about 30 or so celebrities who've been on the vegan bandwagon, 2 or 3 alternative bands, and of course about 5 or 6 blood-curdling documentaries on the issue. There hasn't been a whole lot of change. I'm not saying just because you can get away with it then it should be done, I just think what we need are better regulations on the industry as opposed to scrapping it all together.
I think the reasoning behind the meat industry is pretty simple, animals are delicious. You may disagree, but I come from a long history of people who enjoyed eating meat. So I think we need to take into account the "delicious factor." If so many people enjoy eating meat and so many people get their required vittles from eating meat, then why is it your mission to destroy it? Isn't your goal ultimately to improve mankind's quality of life. If so many people enjoy something maybe you shouldn't be thinking about taking it away and calling it wrong, maybe you should be looking into what can be done to improve the quality of production in today's industry. Write letters to congressmen, picket outside a factory, don't come on a forum and tell me not to eat meat. You've accomplished nothing because I will continue to eat meat while the hour or so you've spent writing responses could've been spent writing out an eloquent and intelligent letter to a Senator.
"Damn this pig taste good." - America.
Isn't the same abuse done unto chickens to harvest eggs? I've seen the videos with the cages. As well as fish/crustacean harvesting. I don't think anyone should be arguing here that it is wrong to eat meat. As far as the meat industry goes, its a big pinata so you don't really have to have a huge bat to hit it. Crying about the industry has been really trendy over the past couple of years and if you think it's going to hit us like a meteor or something in the next decade or so I think you're wrong. I think their have already been about 30 or so celebrities who've been on the vegan bandwagon, 2 or 3 alternative bands, and of course about 5 or 6 blood-curdling documentaries on the issue. There hasn't been a whole lot of change. I'm not saying just because you can get away with it then it should be done, I just think what we need are better regulations on the industry as opposed to scrapping it all together.
I think the reasoning behind the meat industry is pretty simple, animals are delicious. You may disagree, but I come from a long history of people who enjoyed eating meat. So I think we need to take into account the "delicious factor." If so many people enjoy eating meat and so many people get their required vittles from eating meat, then why is it your mission to destroy it? Isn't your goal ultimately to improve mankind's quality of life. If so many people enjoy something maybe you shouldn't be thinking about taking it away and calling it wrong, maybe you should be looking into what can be done to improve the quality of production in today's industry. Write letters to congressmen, picket outside a factory, don't come on a forum and tell me not to eat meat. You've accomplished nothing because I will continue to eat meat while the hour or so you've spent writing responses could've been spent writing out an eloquent and intelligent letter to a Senator.
Newmantopia- Posts : 109
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I betcha owning slaves was INCREDIBLY convenient. Damn the bastards who sought to take that right away from the slave-owners.
Once again... "The world is X, therefore it should be X"
The films I make will carry latent messages regarding my world-views. This is how I'll make a difference! Discussing and sharpening my thoughts within an isolated group of strong thinkers definitely can't hurt.
(edit to fix insignificant grammar issue)
Once again... "The world is X, therefore it should be X"
The films I make will carry latent messages regarding my world-views. This is how I'll make a difference! Discussing and sharpening my thoughts within an isolated group of strong thinkers definitely can't hurt.
(edit to fix insignificant grammar issue)
Last edited by Newmantopia on Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:45 am; edited 2 times in total
The Rebirth- Posts : 196
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The Rebirth wrote: I'm not saying just because you can get away with it then it should be done, I just think what we need are better regulations on the industry as opposed to scrapping it all together.
Newmantopia- Posts : 109
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The Rebirth wrote:I'm not saying just because you can get away with it then it should be done, I just think what we need are better regulations on the industry as opposed to scrapping it all together.
I agree with this statement. Regulations should definitely come first. However I do see humanity at some point getting along with extremely little to no
KCLU- Admin
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hey, generally statements this stupid:
if wikipedia is an illegitimate source of information I can happily recommend several books instead, which would all be easily found at the library or through torrents.
I don't think your thought-experiment is specific enough to go ahead and grapple with, but I can tell you whats relevant to these kinds of decisions (if they ever actually do happen).
humans and livestock may be equals in suffering, but humans alone can be said to be stable subjects of experience; that is, humans form goals and desires that they hope to see realized in the future, and this has to be taken into account when thinking about what kinds of lives have value. euthanizing a normal adult human in its sleep and euthanizing a cat in its sleep are robbing the former of a great deal (to say nothing of their family and friends), whereas the latter can't be said to have been robbed of similar fulfillment.
so in almost any conceivable case, yes, the human possesses a life of more value and ought to be favored.
but make your human a deformed newborn lacking a brain stem, and the cow a recent science experiment implanted with a brain possessing ten times the intelligence of the smartest humans, and you'd have an obvious moral responsibility to choose the cow.
..deserve to be ignored, but accusing someone of "covering their ass" while immediately dismissing as straightforward and purely descriptive an article as I can imagine, is some kind of accomplishment.The Rebirth wrote:I'm not reading an article that has "This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality," written across the top, I guess I do like that you covered your ass though with the "my thoughts" bit.
if wikipedia is an illegitimate source of information I can happily recommend several books instead, which would all be easily found at the library or through torrents.
I don't think that. but what people say and write about really matters. I know that for Jesse it was just me nudging him with analogies and thought-experiments, but by absolute chance I happened to read a book and was effectively talked out of my old worldview. it happens all the time.The Rebirth wrote:if you think it's going to hit us like a meteor or something in the next decade or so I think you're wrong.
it depends on the characteristics of the individuals concerned, just like any other decision.Newmantopia wrote:Kyle, how would you feel if it came down to a necessary death between a cow or a human? And why would it be chosen over the other?
I don't think your thought-experiment is specific enough to go ahead and grapple with, but I can tell you whats relevant to these kinds of decisions (if they ever actually do happen).
humans and livestock may be equals in suffering, but humans alone can be said to be stable subjects of experience; that is, humans form goals and desires that they hope to see realized in the future, and this has to be taken into account when thinking about what kinds of lives have value. euthanizing a normal adult human in its sleep and euthanizing a cat in its sleep are robbing the former of a great deal (to say nothing of their family and friends), whereas the latter can't be said to have been robbed of similar fulfillment.
so in almost any conceivable case, yes, the human possesses a life of more value and ought to be favored.
but make your human a deformed newborn lacking a brain stem, and the cow a recent science experiment implanted with a brain possessing ten times the intelligence of the smartest humans, and you'd have an obvious moral responsibility to choose the cow.
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and, before this:
..gets any heat, I'd like to say (as someone who actually paid attention during the requisite Philosophy 101 course in college) that the purpose of such hypotheticals isn't realism, but to point out inconsistencies in thinking.KCLU wrote:but make your human a deformed newborn lacking a brain stem, and the cow a recent science experiment implanted with a brain possessing ten times the intelligence of the smartest humans, and you'd have an obvious moral responsibility to choose the cow.
Newmantopia- Posts : 109
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It had occurred to me that I should have just asked between the average human and the average cow (average in health, personality, etc.). But you answered the question well, thanks.
The Rebirth- Posts : 196
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Like I said, hating on the meat industry is hip. Why don't you guys go after big tobacco? Just because you stand on porches with a cig in your mouth doesn't mean you can ignore it.
The Rebirth- Posts : 196
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I guess for me personally, and I don't speak for anyone else, this is just so I can escape the argument, I really don't care, I'm pretty apathetic about it. I think its a neat diversion for certain people to whine about the injustices of big meat, but I see a large number of people like myself probably not caring. After all is said and done, they're animals. You can argue all the philosophy you want, but animals can't look to the ax-wielder and ask for his forgiveness. They're here under our dominion and we will do as we please with them, and with that, I'm out. Pick this apart and quote it all you want, I've made my peace and I'm off to grab a burger.
The Rebirth- Posts : 196
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Also this makes me skeptical
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/r/258-peta-killed-95-percent-of-adoptable-pets-in-its-care-during-2008
(95% of animals dying bit)
http://consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/h/2628-hyperbolic-hypocrisy
(insulin bit)
"Hyp"sters are deeply sincere when they take on causes.
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/r/258-peta-killed-95-percent-of-adoptable-pets-in-its-care-during-2008
(95% of animals dying bit)
http://consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/h/2628-hyperbolic-hypocrisy
(insulin bit)
"Hyp"sters are deeply sincere when they take on causes.
Meow- Admin
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The Rebirth wrote:Also this makes me skeptical
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/r/258-peta-killed-95-percent-of-adoptable-pets-in-its-care-during-2008
(95% of animals dying bit)
http://consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/h/2628-hyperbolic-hypocrisy
(insulin bit)
"Hyp"sters are deeply sincere when they take on causes.
I don't think anyone here is shortsighted enough to be in any kind of support of Peta.
As for my stance on the subject, it really comes down to I don't care that much. The meat industry is disgusting, I admit that, but even after reading articles on the subject, watching documentaries, talking to vegans and vegetarians, the convenience of a tasty burger still weighs heavier on me than the poor little lives of the animals we slaughter.
I don't think there's any chance that we are going to even come close to not eating meat as a society within the next hundreds of years. Think about what you'd be expecting from people of all cultures from us here in our comfy middle class homes surrounded by McDonald's to the little Swahili villages off the coasts of Africa. I think, if anything, the wealthier nations may turn to depending on cultured meat, but I think this will occur mostly out of convenience, price, and the need for land rather than a change in mind of billions of omnivores.
Last edited by Meow on Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
DopeMasterJFlow- Admin
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This is an interesting debate. It is also worth noting that there are no vegetarians in this debate. Kyle and Jesse are both pescetarians. This fact I think weakens both of your arguments. It is difficult to argue against the meat industry on grounds that the animals suffer when the seafood industry is equally as bad as the meat industry. Clearly, fish and crustaceans have nervous systems and feel pain. So when they are trolled up into nets and kept in tanks with low oxygen and zero space to move is that okay? Not to mention the excessive overfishing of our oceans. How are you able to justify seafood while opposing land based farm meat?
KCLU- Admin
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I'm glad you pointed this out! I can't justify it, its an error on my part. but it doesn't weaken the arguments themselves: like, Al Gore having private jets doesn't make climate change any less real, it just reflects poorly on him.DopeMasterJFlow wrote:This is an interesting debate. It is also worth noting that there are no vegetarians in this debate. Kyle and Jesse are both pescetarians. This fact I think weakens both of your arguments. [...] How are you able to justify seafood while opposing land based farm meat?
but I look at this as a process, and've always planned on being a vegetarian/vegan once I live on my own and don't inconvenience family and friends.
p.s. nothing Nick said was remotely close to an argument, lol!
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